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In 2014, Lisa French had spinal surgical procedure. Earlier than the operation, she was informed she must pay $1,337 in out-of-pocket prices and that her insurance coverage would cowl the remaining. Nevertheless, the hospital ended up sending French a invoice for $229,000. When she didn’t pay, it sued her.

The case went all the way in which to the Colorado Supreme Courtroom. On this episode of “An Arm and a Leg,” host Dan Weissmann finds out how the courtroom dominated and the way the choice is reshaping the high-quality print on hospital payments in ways in which might value sufferers some huge cash.

Dan Weissmann


@danweissmann

Host and producer of “An Arm and a Leg.” Beforehand, Dan was a employees reporter for Market and Chicago’s WBEZ. His work additionally seems on All Issues Thought-about, Market, the BBC, 99 P.c Invisible, and Reveal, from the Heart for Investigative Reporting.

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Emily Pisacreta
Producer

Adam Raymonda
Audio Wizard

Afi Yellow-Duke
Editor

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Transcript: A $229,000 Medical Invoice Goes to Courtroom

Observe: “An Arm and a Leg” makes use of speech-recognition software program to generate transcripts, which can comprise errors. Please use the transcript as a device however test the corresponding audio earlier than quoting the podcast.

Dan: Hey there–

Lisa French was a clerk for a trucking firm in Denver. She’d been in a automotive crash, and her physician informed her that to maintain her backbone secure, she should get surgical procedure.

She requested the parents on the hospital what it was gonna value her, out of pocket. They ran her insurance coverage and informed her: Your finish goes to be one thousand, 300 thirty-six {dollars}, and ninety cents.

She mentioned, thanks.

Then, she and her husband sat down at their kitchen desk and talked it over: That they had a rainy-day fund. A thousand {dollars} they’d socked away, they saved it at house, in money. Had been they able to spend all of it for this? 

They determined they have been, and Lisa went to the hospital with a thousand {dollars} money. 

She had the surgical procedure, it went high-quality. The hospital had been anticipating about 55 thousand {dollars} from Lisa’s insurance coverage. They really bought extra like 74 thousand.

However they determined that wasn’t sufficient. They determined they needed their full sticker value: 303 thousand {dollars}. In order that they billed Lisa French for the remaining: 229 thousand {dollars}.

And after they didn’t get it, they sued her.

Lisa French had her surgical procedure in 2014. The courtroom case lastly bought resolved final 12 months, in 2022, by the Colorado Supreme Courtroom.

For those who’ve been listening to this present for some time, you most likely bear in mind: We have now gotten VERY serious about understanding, once we get a wild medical invoice, what authorized rights do we’ve got? How can we use these rights to battle again? Even on a small scale, like in small claims courtroom? 

And despite the fact that Lisa French’s case is a LONG method from small claims courtroom, it has a LOT to show us about these questions.

That is An Arm and a Leg, a present about why well being care prices so freaking a lot, and what we are able to perhaps do about it. I’m Dan Weissmann. I’m a reporter, and I like a problem. So our job on this present is to take probably the most enraging, terrifying, miserable components of American life, and convey you one thing entertaining, empowering, and helpful.

And I ought to say upfront: We received’t be listening to from Lisa French immediately.

Her case made quite a lot of headlines– in 2018, when a jury heard it, in YEAR when an appeals courtroom overturned the trial courtroom, and final 12 months when the state supreme courtroom made its ruling.

Not within the type of element that we’re gonna go into, however come on: Who can resist the headline?

Male Anchor: Properly, tonight we’ve got a narrative of David versus Goliath. David being a lady who wanted spinal surgical procedure in 2014 Goliath, the hospital that charged her greater than $200,000 to do it.

Dan: So through the years, quite a lot of reporters needed a sound chunk from Lisa French. Her lawyer used to let her know when there was an inquiry, and he or she’d say sure or no.

Ultimately, she informed her lawyer: Don’t even inform me after they name anymore. I simply need to stay my life.

Honest sufficient.

So right here’s who we’ve bought.

Ted Lavender: I’m Ted Lavender. I’m an lawyer in Atlanta, Georgia. I’ve been training regulation for 26 years,

Dan: And he spent a number of of these years representing Lisa French.

It’s most likely value answering one query up entrance: If Lisa French needed to empty her household’s rainy-day fund to pay the hospital a thousand bucks, who’s paying the lawyer from Atlanta?

The insurance coverage from her job. Which had performed a job in beginning the entire mess.

Ted Lavender: the corporate that she labored for had a well being advantages plan that was barely totally different than what you may name run of the mill medical insurance.

Dan: It labored this manner: They weren’t in-network with any hospitals. As an alternative, they’d simply take no matter invoice any hospital despatched, make their very own analysis of what a good value could be, and ship the hospital a test.

It’s a considerably uncommon mannequin– one survey says about 2 % of employers use a plan like this– however Ted Lavender says it usually works.

Ted Lavender: a really giant proportion of the time , the hospital would settle for the test and nobody would hear something extra from the hospital, which in authorized parlance would imply acceptance

Dan: And as a backstop, in case there was any hassle, the well being plan would ship a lawyer. That’s Ted.

And right here’s what occurred that led to all the difficulty in Lisa French’s case: Whoever ran her insurance coverage card on the hospital, they didn’t learn it very fastidiously.

If they’d, they’d’ve seen a bit emblem beneath the insurance-company identify that mentioned, “supplier solely” — that’s: This plan solely has medical doctors and nurses and different PROVIDERS in community.

With hospitals, there’s no community, no “in-network charge.” We’ll simply ship a test for what we predict is true.

The identical health-benefits firm has a special plan, one which does have a hospital community. You know the way it’s. Insurance coverage firms, 1,000,000 totally different plans, each one its personal snowflake.

The hospital mistook Lisa French’s snowflake for one more one, and that’s how they got here up with that estimate.

Ted Lavender: primarily based on their calculation, they anticipated to gather a complete of

$56,000, the 1,336 from Ms. French and the rest from her well being plan.

Dan: They usually presumably would’ve been pleased with 56 thousand. However they bought extra. They bought about 75 thousand {dollars}.

However as soon as they bought it, they wised as much as the error they’d made about Lisa French’s insurance coverage. That they had no settlement with the insurance coverage plan to simply accept 56 thousand.

So, they determined: There’s no motive for us to not cost our full sticker value right here.300 and three thousand {dollars}.

So Lisa French had been anticipating a invoice for 300 thirty-six {dollars} and ninety cents. That’s the distinction between what she’d been quoted and the thousand {dollars} she’d paid prematurely. However the invoice she bought wasn’t what she anticipated.

Ted Lavender: it turned out to be a whopper of a invoice. We ended up with an itemized invoice that confirmed each line merchandise for each cost that totaled this

$303,000

After which on the backside was, you already know, subtracting the thousand she paid, subtracting the cash the insurance coverage paid, leaving a stability of 229,000 and alter

Dan: After all, Lisa French didn’t have 229 thousand {dollars}, or something prefer it.

Ted Lavender: Ultimately she bought a go to from the sheriff who served her with a lawsuit and he or she was sued for that $229,000.

Dan: And that’s the place Ted Lavender entered the scene.

The jury trial in 2018 took six days. As Ted Lavender says, it wasn’t precisely a splashy homicide trial, when it comes to drama.

Ted Lavender: this was a six day trial involving hospital billing. So, you already know, there was no homicide weapon. There was no aha, huge, gotcha second that was actually thrilling.

Dan: However Ted Lavender did his finest. Like one time, when he bought a hospital government on the witness stand.

To stabilize Lisa French’s backbone, surgeons had implanted 13 items of steel into her physique. So Ted Lavender had the hospital government stroll the jury by way of the worth for every of these bits of steel. Or really, the costs..

Ted Lavender: And I first confirmed him the itemized invoice and requested him to establish what they charged for these 13 items of {hardware} .

I had given him form of an outsized calculator that was sitting there in entrance of him on the witness stand, admittedly, for some dramatic impact

And thru including these up on the itemized invoice, he arrived on the quantity which was $197,000.

Dan: 100 and ninety-seven thousand {dollars}. In order that’s about two-thirds of the 300 and three thousand {dollars} the hospital is attempting to cost Lisa French.

After which the following factor I did was I handed within the 13 invoices that we had obtained from the hospital,

Dan: That’s, Ted handed the man the invoices the hospital had obtained — and paid — when it purchased these bits of steel..

Ted Lavender: and I requested him so as to add up and inform this jury what did the hospital pay for these 13 items of {hardware}.

He’s including, and he’s including and he’s punching in numbers, and he’s turning pages and he’s including, and he’s including with every addition, with every plus the jury appeared to ease a bit nearer as much as the entrance of their chair, and in the end he arrived on the complete, which was $31,000 and alter.

Dan: So the hospital’s charging like six and a half occasions what they paid. And that’s two thirds of this 300 thousand greenback invoice.

Ted Lavender: It simply, you already know, the jury seemingly didn’t like that.

Dan: In order that was a very good second for Lisa French’s aspect. I imply getting the jury mad on the different aspect, that’s a win.

And the massive calculator wasn’t Ted Lavender’s solely visible: He additionally had an enormous post-it word, the place he wrote down, in magic marker, all of the totally different costs the hospital accepted for the surgical procedure, relying on who was paying.

Ted Lavender: and we bought these numbers from the hospital, they’d’ve accepted $146,000 from personal insurance coverage.

Dan: That’s lower than half of what they have been attempting to cost Lisa French. They usually accepted lower than that — a LOT much less — from government-funded insurance coverage, like Medicare, Medicaid, or Tricare, which covers of us within the navy.

Ted Lavender: The common of what they’d’ve accepted for these. Procedures that Ms. French had have been $63,199. Once more, Ms. French and her insurance coverage firm mixed paid virtually $75,000.

Dan: You may hear that post-it rustling round. It was a very good prop, he’s held onto it. So, he’d proven the jury that the hospital charged a HUGE markup, and that what they have been suing Lisa French for was method, far more than they charged anyone else.

On the hospital’s aspect, they have been like, Yeah, however that is our precise sticker value. And Lisa French signed a chunk of paper that mentioned she would pay “all costs of the hospital.”

So the hospital was like, yep, and these are our costs. That 303 thousand {dollars}, it comes from a listing we preserve. It’s known as the chargemaster. That’s what Lisa French was signing up for.

And this turned one thing the jury needed to resolve:

When Lisa French signed a chunk of paper saying she’d pay “all costs of the hospital” — was she particularly agreeing to pay what was on the chargemaster?

And right here’s one factor that may’ve made jurors a bit skeptical on that rating: The hospital by no means confirmed that chargemaster listing to Lisa French. Not earlier than her surgical procedure, not after it. They mentioned it was a commerce secret.

Ted Lavender: they went right through trial. By no means producing it although. We, we, we requested on the very starting, as soon as the lawsuit was filed, , mainly you get to ask questions. Give me this info, give me info that helps your case or helps my case.

And we ask particularly for the cost grasp they usually refuse to provide it on the premise that it was confidential and proprietary.

Dan: By withholding that listing, the hospital could have helped Ted Lavender make his argument: How might Lisa French have recognized what she was signing up for, if she couldn’t see the costs?

Ted Lavender: if we are able to’t get it by way of our subpoena energy, how on the planet would Lisa Friendship been ready to make use of it by, had she requested?

And admittedly she didn’t ask for it, but when she had, certainly they wouldn’t have given it to her both.

Dan: Ultimately, the jury agreed: Lisa French had not particularly agreed to pay the hospital’s chargemaster costs.

And the one different different was: She agreed to pay one thing cheap.

The jury determined she owed the hospital seven hundred seventy six {dollars} and 74 cents

Principally, that’s the 300 and a few left over from the unique estimate, plus some additional — as a result of she wound up staying within the hospital one evening greater than anticipated: She owed a charge for late check-out.

After all the hospital didn’t take that mendacity down. They appealed the result– and received! Ted Lavender appealed that call, which is how the case ended up in entrance of the Colorado Supreme Courtroom.

We’ve really bought tape of these proceedings. They’re kinda juicy. Plus the result, and why it issues for the remainder of us. That’s proper after this.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Well being Information–previously often known as Kaiser Well being Information.

They’re a nationwide newsroom producing in-depth journalism about well being care in America. We’ll have extra details about KFF Well being Information on the finish of this episode.

OK, so Lisa French’s case was headed to the Colorado Supreme Courtroom.

And right here’s the massive difficulty. Keep in mind how the jury discovered that Lisa French hadn’t really agreed to pay the hospital’s chargemaster value, the 300 and three thousand {dollars}?

The hospital argued: The jury by no means ought to’ve been requested to contemplate that query.

The regulation — authorized precedent — makes it open and shut: The appeals courtroom had agreed. And it had cited different instances from courts across the nation.

So when the hospital’s lawyer, Mike McConnell, bought as much as handle the Supreme Courtroom, he led with these citations.

Mike McConnell: The entire questions that you’ve got raised have been addressed in additional than a dozen instances across the nation. fastidiously and totally.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: Properly, let me push again on you. Good morning to you, Mr. McConnell.

Mike McConnell: Good morning.

Dan: That is Justice Richard L Gabriel, stepping proper in. He notes that these dozen different selections all relaxation on one authentic case, from 2008, the place a courtroom had mentioned: We are able to’t intervene in well being care pricing. Courts shouldn’t attempt. Well being care is just too difficult.

Justice Gabriel wasn’t satisfied.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: I assume the query I’ve is why, you already know? I, you already know, we might not be the neatest individuals on the planet, however it is a contract and why ought to the hospital business— totally different than every other business on the planet —have totally different guidelines for contract rules?

Dan: The hospital lawyer argued that hospitals couldn’t predict every part that may occur in a affected person’s care. Actually, the hospital can’t even management it: Solely physicians can resolve what therapy to order.

Mike McConnell: You may, uh, I assume think about that hospitals ought to have the ability to predict prematurely what a specific doctor goes to order for a specific affected person. Um, and, uh, maybe, you already know, clearly you are feeling that’s the method it should be. It’s not the way in which it’s, however now

Justice Melissa Hart: Mr. Mr. McConnell, I’m sorry, to interrupt…

Dan: Right here’s justice Melissa Hart breaking in

Justice Melissa Hart: …the hospital did present an estimate on this case. They did calculate what they thought this was going to value and inform her that. So it’s, it appears false to me that they will’t do it. After all, they will’t predict with absolute certainty. On this case, she had the additional evening keep within the hospital and he or she paid for that. However they will predict in a case like this, they usually do.

Dan: The justices didn’t appear super-persuaded by McConnell’s response to that. And that left yet another huge query in entrance of the justices.

When Lisa French signed a doc promising to pay “all costs,” was she positively agreeing to pay 300 and three thousand {dollars}? Or 229 after insurance coverage.

The appeals courtroom discovered that the chargemaster charge — the 303 thousand — had been “integrated by reference” to the doc she’d signed, formally known as the “hospital companies settlement.”

The supreme courtroom wasn’t satisfied. Right here’s Justice Richard Gabriel once more.

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: There’s no reference to the cost grasp on the face of the hospital companies settlement.

How might she have assented to one thing she by no means even knew existed?

Dan: And right here’s how the hospital’s lawyer responded.

Mike McConnell: When she learn the availability, all costs not in any other case paid by insurance coverage. She understood that the hospital costs would, she was answerable for paying the hospital costs that her insurance coverage firm did it,

Justice Richard L. Gabriel: No matter it was. They may have charged her a billion {dollars} and he or she’s your place to be she’s certain as a result of she agreed. All costs means all costs.

Dan: Huh! There wasn’t an actual comeback to that.

The Supreme Courtroom dominated in opposition to the hospital, unanimously. Particularly, they dominated that the chargemaster– the 303 thousand {dollars}– had not been “integrated by reference” to the piece of paper Lisa French had signed.

She didn’t know these chargemaster listing costs even existed. How might she comply with pay them?

In order that meant, the courtroom dominated that, quote, “the hospital companies agreements left the worth time period open.”

Which is language which will ring a bell, for those who’ve been listening to this present. It’s a authorized precept — a bedrock of contract regulation:

How the regulation treats an open-price contract — a contract that doesn’t specify a value time period.

Right here’s a refresher on that precept from Ted Lavender.

Ted Lavender: for those who go to McDonald’s and order a, 1 / 4 pounder with cheese and you already know, worth meal quantity three, they let you know the worth and that’s the value that you need to pay. After which they provide you your meal.

You enter that contract with an precise value time period

Dan: However it’s also possible to enter an open-price contract — a contract and not using a value time period.

Ted Lavender: if in case you have a contract and not using a value time period, and not using a particular value in it, then the regulation infer into that contract an inexpensive value.

Dan: In different phrases, a contract with the worth time period OPEN just isn’t a clean test. I don’t need to pay no matter quantity the opposite aspect makes up.

And that’s what the Colorado Supreme Courtroom discovered right here.

They dominated that, quote, “rules of contract regulation can actually be utilized to hospital-patient contracts.” They are saying, a courtroom could have dominated in any other case in 2008, and different courts could have cited that opinion. We disagree.

The Colorado Supreme Courtroom is saying, even in well being care, when no value is specified– when the worth time period is open– you will have the suitable to an inexpensive value.

Sure!

And that’s why Lisa French’s case is so attention-grabbing to us, right here on this present.

As a result of we’ve talked right here about utilizing this authorized precept to battle again in opposition to outrageous payments.

We’ve heard from one man, Jeffrey Fox, who really took a hospital to small claims courtroom to implement his proper to an inexpensive value. And received.

We’ve heard from a listener who tried and failed, however mentioned, extra of us ought to do this.

And this Colorado choice looks like excellent news for anyone serious about doing one thing like that.

However actually, it additionally raises a number of considerations that I had not recognized about earlier than. First:

Properly, there ARE all these different instances on the market, in different states, that comply with the 2008 case, the one that claims well being care is just too difficult for courts to get into.

And yeah, right here’s Colorado saying, “No it isn’t.”

However courts in different states aren’t certain by Colorado’s choice. Hm. And second: there’s additionally one thing the Colorado courtroom DIDN’T resolve:

What if the paper Lisa French signed had specified, “I comply with pay the hospital’s CHARGEMASTER charges?” Might she be required to pay them then? Even when they have been a billion {dollars}?

Of their choice, The Colorado courtroom wrote that the chargemaster charges are “more and more arbitrary” and “inflated” and “have misplaced any direct connection to hospitals precise value.”

So Ted Lavender thinks they could’ve mentioned, No, we are able to’t be held to a billion {dollars}, simply by including the phrase “chargemaster.”

Ted Lavender: I feel they’d’ve answered that. No, however they didn’t come proper out and really reply that.

Dan: As a result of they didn’t HAVE to reply that query.

Ted Lavender: Courts routinely, actually, it’s virtually an goal of appeals courts. They reply as few various questions as doable to get to a solution. ,

Dan: So the Colorado courtroom simpley dominated that in Lisa French’s case, the chargemaster charges weren’t “integrated by reference” into papers she signed.

These papers didn’t didn’t point out the chargemaster in any respect– and the hospital saved that chargemaster as a commerce secret. Open, shut.

However… hospitals aren’t supposed to maintain these charges secret anymore. For the final couple of years, due to an government order from the Trump administration, federal guidelines have required them to publish their chargemaster to the web.

And so I had all that in thoughts after I heard from a listener in Atlanta.

Cindi Gatton: my identify is Cindy Gatton and I’ve been an unbiased affected person advocate for 11 years now.

Dan: Cindi’s job helps individuals take care of medical payments, however she had really written to me about her expertise as a affected person.

Earlier than a medical appointment, she bought the same old types on-line, together with one for “Affected person Monetary Settlement and Duties”

Cindi Gatton: so I assumed, you already know what? I’m gonna print it and simply see precisely what it says. And I’m studying by way of the factor it says, affected person understands and agrees that he, she shall be cost. The Piedmont Healthcare Normal cost grasp charges for all companies not lined by a payer or which can be self-pay.

I’ve by no means seen that earlier than, and it shocked me that there was a reference to cost grasp charges within the monetary disclosure.

Dan: And Cindi has been coping with medical payments full-time for a decade. She’s seen so much. So when she says it’s new, and that it’s stunning, that appears value noting.

Cindi Gatton: it simply feels fallacious to me. It feels actually fallacious as a result of it, it jogs my memory of, you already know, you, you go to an internet site they usually provide you with their phrases and situations. No person reads these. I don’t learn them. You click on sure with the intention to transfer on with what it’s you wanna do, which is to get care, to be seen by the physician to, you already know, have your process.

And I don’t know this, this feels, um, it feels manipulative to me

Dan: Yeah, and to me, it feels ominous. Like attorneys who work for hospitals have been being attentive to the Lisa French choice and pondering:

There’s a wedge right here perhaps we might exploit. Like, if we get you to signal a doc that claims “chargemaster” on it, we’re getting you to signal away your proper to an inexpensive value. In spite of everything, the courtroom in Colorado didn’t come out and say that wouldn’t be kosher.

So, the place I’m touchdown on the finish of this story is: I’ve bought a pair huge homework assignments:

First, if I’m serious about seeing how we are able to use our authorized rights to battle again in opposition to outrageous, unreasonable payments — and I’m —

I must be taught extra about which states acknowledge our rights to an inexpensive value in well being care, and which of them … perhaps don’t. I’m on it, and for those who’ve bought any suggestions, please carry them.

That’s the primary task, and for the second, I’d love your assist: What number of hospitals are utilizing this “chargemaster” language lately in these monetary responsbility paperwork they ask us to signal?

Do me a favor: See if you may get a replica of that doc from any hospital system or physician group the place you get seen. And ship me a replica of it?

Redact something you should. And likewise know: we’re not aiming to share this with anyone exterior our reporting group.

Right here’s what occurred after I tried this.

A hospital the place I get seen makes use of a portal known as MyChart– quite a lot of hospitals use it. I simply logged on to MyChart there, and I did a bit digging round. I discovered a hyperlink to one thing known as “My Paperwork.” And I discovered a type there known as Common Consent.”

It has stuff about monetary duty.

It doesn’t point out chargemaster charges. But it surely’s a 12 months previous. It additionally says it’s expired.

And right here’s an concept I bought from Cindi, which I’m gonna attempt– and which appears value passing round.

When Cindi discovered that chargemaster language within the doc from her Hospital, right here’s what she did. She printed it out and adjusted it:

Cindi Gatton: what I did is as a substitute of the usual cost grasp charges, I drew a line by way of it and I wrote in two x Medicare charges.

Dan: In different phrases, as a substitute of claiming “I’ll pay the chargemaster charges,” it says, “I’ll pay two occasions the Medicare charge.”

We’ve heard about this technique earlier than, from former ProPublica reporter Marshall Allen, who wrote about it in his e book, “By no means Pay the First Invoice.”

Right here’s the rationale. Medicare pays lower than most business insurance coverage; hospitals say that at the very least typically they lose cash on Medicare. Doubling it appears … beneficiant sufficient. But it surely additionally units a restrict.

In order that’s what Cindi wrote on her printout.

Cindi Gatton: I’ve been taking it with me after I go to be seen that in the event that they ask me for the doc that I can say, you already know, right here it’s.

Dan: Thus far, she says, no one’s requested for it.

And, I don’t suppose anyone shall be confused, however simply to verify, I’ll say: This isn’t authorized recommendation. I’m not a lawyer. Cindi’s not a lawyer.

She’s only a particular person going to the physician, doing her finest to not depart too many openings the place she might get actually screwed. And I’m gonna attempt following her instance.

And I’ve bought one other request for you: For those who do this trick of printing the factor out, exxing out the chargemaster language and writing 2 x medicare charges– LET ME KNOW WHAT HAPPENS, OK?

The place to do all that is on our web site at arm and a leg present dot com, slash contact. That’s arm and a leg present dot com, slash, contact.

You might be this present’s secret weapon. You’re our eyes and ears. Cindi Gatton’s a listener who bought in contact.

How did I first find out about Lisa French’s case? Electronic mail from a listener. [Thank you, Terry N, for that note last year! Took us a minute, but we got to this.]

Thanks for listening. You completely rule. I’ll catch you quickly.

Until then, maintain your self.

This episode of An Arm and a Leg was produced by me, Dan Weissmann, with assist from Emily Pisacreta, and edited by Afi Yellow-Duke.

Daisy Rosario is our consulting managing producer. Adam Raymonda is our audio wizard. Our music is by Dave Winer and Blue Dot Periods.

Gabrielle Healy is our managing editor for viewers. She edits the First Support Package E-newsletter.

Bea Bosco is our consulting director of operations. Sarah Ballema is our operations supervisor.

An Arm and a Leg is produced in partnership with KFF Well being Information–previously often known as Kaiser Well being Information.

That’s a nationwide newsroom producing in-depth journalism about well being care in America, and a core program at KFF — an unbiased supply of well being coverage analysis, polling, and journalism.

And sure, you probably did hear the identify Kaiser in there, and no: KFF isn’t affiliated with the well being care big Kaiser Permanente. You may be taught extra about KFF Well being Information at arm and a leg present dot com, slash KFF.

Zach Dyer is senior audio producer at KFF Well being Information. He’s editorial liaison to this present.

Due to Public Narrative — That’s a Chicago-based group that helps journalists and nonprofits inform higher tales– for serving as our fiscal sponsor, permitting us to simply accept tax-exempt donations. You may be taught extra about Public Narrative at www dot public narrative dot org.

And because of all people who helps this present financially.

For those who haven’t but, we’d love so that you can be part of us. The place for that’s arm and a leg present dot com, slash help.

Thanks!

“An Arm and a Leg” is a co-production of KFF Well being Information and Public Highway Productions.

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